Episode 108: Lilian Swann Saarinen
The time was 1912, the place New York City, Lilian Swann was born. As a child she was interested in art, particularly in drawing animals. Her mother supported her artistic pursuits, allowing her to study under notable artists like Alexander Archipenko and Heinz Warneke.
She attended Cranbrook Academy, where she studied under Carl Milles and met her future husband, Eero Saarinen. Together, they collaborated on various architectural projects, with Lily contributing sculptures that were integral to the designs. One of her significant early commissions was for a civic center in Flint, Michigan, where she designed a pillar with animal sculptures, considering the space's use and context.
Among Lily's notable projects, we can find the Crow Island School in Illinois, where she created 40 animal sculptures that were thoughtfully integrated into the architectural design. Despite her significant contributions, she often did not receive public credit for her work.
Lily and Eero married in 1939 and had two children. They collaborated on several projects, including the St. Louis Arch design team in 1947. After their divorce in 1954, Lily continued her career, producing architectural sculptures, including a piece for the Harbor National Bank in Boston in the 1960s. Despite the challenges, Lily's work left a lasting impact on architectural sculpture.
During her lifetime she taught at the Pratt Institute in New York City, MIT, and the Museum of Fine Arts School in Boston. And she won various awards including the Rome Collaborative Competition, the A.H. Huntington First Prize, and, I.B.M. Competition to name a few. She passed away on May 22, 1995 at the age of 83
Caryatid: Ada Tolla
Ada Tolla, co-founder of the firm Lot-Ek with Giuseppe Lignano, merges architecture with art, focusing on sustainability and material reuse. Ada and Giuseppe met in Naples, Italy, and have worked together since 1993. Their projects often involve upcycling. For example, they transformed a 40-foot shipping containers into livable spaces. Their motto, "We start with the things we find," reflects their creative process. Ada is also a professor, her resume includes Syracuse University and Columbia University's Graduate School of Architecture. She continues exploring innovative design and material experimentation through her work and teachings.
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This transcript was prepared during the development of the episode.
Final recorded episode may deviate slightly from the content presented below as changes, edits, or improvements may be made during the recording and editing process.
Norgerie: Hi! Welcome to She Builds Podcast, where we share stories about women in the design and construction field, one lady at a time.
Jessica: This season’s theme is: “Pairs, Duos” . We are talking about ladies who were a part of a professional pair in some fashion.
Lizi: As always, we are not experts, we are just sharing stories about the information that we find, as friends having a fun conversation. If you find an error, send us an email and we will all continue learning.
Norgerie: Today we're talking about Lilian Swann Saarinen, the sculptor of iconic architecture projects. I’m Norgerie Rivas, wondering how many days I will live without electricity in 2024, in Houston Texas.
Jessica: Hi, I’m Jessica Rogers living in constant heat and humidity in Miami, FL
Lizi: Hi, I’m Lizi Raar, in San Francisco.
Norgerie: So this story was really interesting because I found an oral history, Lilian was interviewed in a series that lasted years, and I found the transcripts.
Lizi: I have had that before with a few ladies. It’s kind of awesome and also kind of overwhelming trying to piece it all together and not have a two hour episode.
Jessica: same! You are so excited to hear this lady tell her life in her own words but at the same time, you just want to get to the root of the plot, not so much what the weather was like. And THEN because it’s an oral history you find yourself wanting to ask follow-up questions but you can’t!
Norgerie: 100%. Ok. Let’s do it to it. The time April 17, 1912, the place New York City, Lilian Louisa Swann was born. Her parents were Dr. Arthur Wharton Swann and Susan Ridley Sedgwick. Lilian had a sister two years her senior, Lucy, so it was Lucy and Lilian. I think it's cute when siblings have the same initials.
Lizi: Very cute.
Jessica: it is cute
Norgerie: Lily says the family was part of society but not really wealthy. Her mom was a socialite and her dad was a doctor. Sadly he passed away when she was only two years old.
Lizi: Oh no!
Jessica: oh wow!
Norgerie: Even though she was so young she remembers all of a sudden dad was gone, mom was dressed in black for a long time, for a while she left to California to get away and the girls stayed behind with a British nanny, it was really confusing and traumatic for her as a child.
Lizi: I bet! That would be really confusing and a lot to take in as a kid. I mean dad dying or disappearing alone is traumatic, but then to have mom leave too, and she probably didn’t know if she was coming back or not.
Jessica: that part! Having mom leave like that. I wonder what kind of grief the mother went through to have to want to go to California without her kids
Norgerie: Yeah, after that, Lily had an interesting formative years. She loved drawing animals, she was super into biology, zoology, physiology. She went to a good school, Miss Chapin's School in Manhattan, but she was not a fan because they made her do a lot of still lifes and she would get good grades but to her that wasn’t art because it didn’t mean anything to her.
Jessica I get the still lives… I’ve drawn my fair share of still lives it can get monotonous- guessing the time though I doubt that the school allowed for any hint outside of the norm.
Norgerie: Her mom really tried to nurture her daughter's art passion. She gave the ok for teenage Lily to go live with the art tutor Mrs Louise Saunders during school breaks. And Mrs. Louise taught Lily about whatever Lily was interested in so she learned mostly about the history of art and sculpture.
Lizi: Well it sounds like this was probably a better way for her to learn since she got to choose the curriculum and direction of what she learned. I also appreciate that her mom was like ok, we need to figure something out and didn’t just say, well you can opt out of school. I feel like at this time that might have happened?
Jessica: Probably. This MS. Louise sounds interesting though-like so she can just tutor Lily on any art-related subject? What is her life? How can she do that? But if she like art so much continuing to do it even in between semesters sounds fun.
Norgerie: And she was constantly drawing, she liked going to Central Park to draw or going to the Met or the Museum of Science, her mom tried to take her to one of these at least once a week so Lily could get her drawing fix. It sounds like mom really tried to nurture her daughter's interests and talents, and that could not have been easy as a widow, so I have a soft spot for mom.
Lizi: Yeah! This is a great mom trying to make sure that her daughter was intellectually and artistically stimulated. I love it.
Jessica: hi mom!
Norgerie: At 17, she became a pupil of Alexander Archipenko, a famous Ukrainian-American artist and sculptor. The entrance exam consisted of copying one of his drawings displayed on a wall. She drew a simple line drawing and that really impressed him
It showcased inherent form in line alone. Recognizing her talent as a sculptor just off of that, he placed her in the top class, making her one of the youngest students there.
Lizi: WOO! Way to go Lily!
Jessica: oooh very cool
Norgerie: Alexander ended up being a very good and encouraging teacher, she would draw different still lives and then sculpt abstractions.
Lizi: Nice.
Jessica: this sounds like such a great opportunity for her
Norgerie: She lived for a while in Connecticut at a farm with another famous sculptor Heinz Warneke. Lily just traveled around studying art under these famous people. It sounds like an artist thing to do, like normal people don’t do this.
Lizi: hahahaha. That is a very artist thing to do. Just travel around and apprentice or collaborate with various people.
Jessica: but that is so cool!
Norgerie: Oh also very artist thing to do: She had a few of her drawings be part of exhibitions in galleries in New York, just 17-18 year old Lily, and her little artist self getting on exhibitions.
Lizi: Woah! That’s crazy! Good for her.
Jessica: hey wild indeed but when you are that good? It also seems like she was in the right artist circles to have these connections
Norgerie: Ok this is gonna be a little random but listen to this, at 18 she went to Munich to study sculpture and someone told her she should go skiing in Austria and she was like I think there will be nature and animals there so yeah lets go. By now we know this is her jam.
Jessica: I’m not sure we’re skiing and sculpture intersect but sure, why not hahaha
Lizi: HAHA sure let’s go skiing in Austria.
Norgerie: Turns out she really liked skiing cause to her it was an art like sculpting, she thought the two were similar. And casually, as this lady does everything, she’s like oh snap I’m pretty good at this. So she got trained by important athletes and became an alternate on the first U.S. Women's alpine ski team at the 1936 Winter Olympics.
Lizi: STOP. WHAT!?! Hahahahaha. That is not a casual endeavor.
Jessica: how does someone “casually” join an Olympic team? Hahaha
Norgerie: There’s absolutely nothing casual about this lady, she feels like the protagonist of a show on TV that does everything well.
Lizi: HAHA. I love all of this. And the fact that in her retelling she’s just like oh yeah and then I was an alternate for the Olympics. I thought it would be cool.
Jessica: honestly that’s the life I would want to live - just chasing opportunities as they come- also! This is happening in her like early 20s … wild!
Norgerie: Don't think she just left art aside. No, no, she kept drawing at night, she would train during the day, draw at night, she was intense.
Lizi: Yeah no kidding.
Jessica: I mean maybe drawing was how she unwind?
Norgerie: Maybe. After 1936, she left Europe, went back to New York. There she was trying to figure out what was next and a friend recommended she went to Cranbrook because it was a place where famous artists taught and she could be completely free. And Lily thought oh yeah this it.
Lizi: HAHAHA. This lady is so great. Just flitting about from thing to thing, but killing it every place she goes.
Norgerie: As she was considering going to Cranbrook she went to a lecture of one of its professor’s and master architect of the place, Eliel Saarinen and she was really captivated by his words, how he spoke about nature, architecture, and city planning. I like this quote he told the class “if you're going to do an ashtray, you have to know what table it's going to be on. And if you're going to do a table, you have to know what kind of room it's going to be in. And if you're going to do a room, you have to know what kind of house it's going to be in. You have to always think of the next largest thing to what you're commissioned to do.” About this Lily said "I never forgot that, because it applied a lot to when I was doing my sculpture.”
Lizi: That is a really good way to think about design. Essentially context, right?
Jessica: yes - we briefly mentioned this when talking about Loja Saarinen - Eilel’s wife. It’s context but I think when we think of context we might think from the top down, we design the building, then think of the room, then the chair, and the fabric. Eilel is thinking the opposite.
Norgerie: Context is everything… For Lily that lecture from Eliel opened her eyes to the possibilities of her sculptures, and started getting her to think about architectural sculptures. And during the talk he mentioned his son was studying city planning and her ears perked up when she heard “my son”.
Lizi: HAHA I bet they did.
Jessica: ooooh
Norgerie: So she ends up going to Cranbrook, studying under Carl Milles, just another very famous artist , and learning more about materials, how she should treat each through different techniques in her sculptures, he gave her really good critiques and she took them to heart.
Lizi: Sounds like it was really informative to her work.
Norgerie: One night she goes out to dinner with friends and there is Eliel Saarinen’s son, Eero. And she asked him when did he arrive to the US, and he was like ummm why do you ask, and she said cause your accent is so thick, and he was like ummm that’s offensive, but I like skiing and you're an Olympian so I’m gonna ignore what you just said, and we're gonna talk about anything else. So they did, and they started to dig each other.
Lizi: HAHAHA. What a meet cute.
Jessica: that’s actually really funny - in Miami it’s so common to ask someone about their accent hahaha
Norgerie: She was in awe of him, and he was impressed with her work, it was mutual. He asked her to develop a sculpture for a civil center he was doing in Flint, Michigan. It was her first big architectural commission. There she began to put into practice what she'd been learning from Eliel and Carl, how sculpture has to relate to architecture.
Lizi: Yay! So exciting that she got her first commission!
Jessica: yeahhhhh
Norgerie: Eero asked her to finish a pillar he had designed for the space, and she started out by thinking that it was a civic community center, children would go there, and she decided to sculpt animals climbing onto and up the pillar. She made racoons, bears, and animals that were local to the region. Thinking about the use, the context of the space, the scale, all these architectural modes of thinking.
Lizi: I love how she thought about the design for this. Sounds like she’s taking Eliel’s advice to heart.
Jessica: yep
Norgerie: Eero was pretty happy with what she produced, which made her happy. Then his sister, Pipsan Saarinen Swanson, commissioned her to do a sculpture of dragons for niches in their house, which was another big commission.
Lizi: Making those connections.
Jessica: yeahhh that family was so talented, I feel like if one person liked you then you are in
Norgerie: The parameters Pipsan gave her were: “do whatever you want, just as long as it's wild." So Lily experimented with busy form and busy color. Which was innately very dangerous and wild. She started to learn how to deal with colors in sculptures, she would go to the pottery department and get suggestions and critiques from the pottery students.
Jessica: color being “dangerous and wild” hahaha I like that she sought out help to get ideas and feedback. But it also seems like that was the Cranbrook environment.
Lizi: That’s a crazy brief for a project. I think I would be overwhelmed with the possibilities. I like having some parameters for a project haha.
Norgerie: Same, but Lily handled it. She started collaborating more and more with Eero, spending time with the Saarinen’s getting to work on more architectural sculptures. I can’t tell when Eero and Lilian started dating, but she was scared of the mom. Mama Saarinen was very rigid, but she got along with everyone else.
Lizi: hahaha Loja was the only one she couldn’t crack I guess?
Jessica: Well if you recall last week when we talked about Loja. She was the matriarch that was looking after E V E R Y T H I N G. I would be intimidated by her
Norgerie: scary stuff. Well, Lily was working with Eero, reviewing his designs, sharing her general intuition about the spaces… and he trusted her judgment.
Lizi: That’s right!
Jessica: this is actually really cute, it reminds me of Loja and Eilel
Norgerie: When Eero started collaborating on furniture with the Eames, Lily was there too, sitting on the chairs, sharing her critiques. Oh I should mention by this point they were married. They married on June 10, 1939 and they had two kids: Eric Saarinen, born in 1942, and three years later they had a little girl, Susan Saarinen.
Lizi: Woah. All of a sudden they’re married with kids.
Jessica: yes! Cute!
Norgerie: In 1947 Lily was part of the award winning team for the design of the St. Louis Arch, which if you haven't, you should listen to episode 46 to learn about the fiasco that happened when they told someone else erroneously they had won, but they didn't.
Lizi: Ohhhh right.
Jessica: Yes Oh MMM GGG - It’s all coming back now.
Lizi: Wait, so Lily is one of the designers of the St Louis Arch is what you’re saying?
Norgerie: I am, she was part of the team.
Lizi: So cool!
Jessica: oooh okay that is awesome - also St. Louis Arch, Iconic
Norgerie: During this time Lily wasn’t working on as many sculptures as she was used to, we know this lady was intense, but now she was a mom and was juggling a lot more, still she was working, she has winning competitions with her husband, she had another commission with the architecture firm SOM for a space they were designing. An enameled bronze sculpture on the Mississippi river, she was keeping busy.
Lizi: Again, a casual commission with SOM. Even when she slows down, she’s still doing cool things.
Jessica: I know this is duos and partnership season but I like that she was finding projects outside of her partnership with her Husband.
Norgerie: Oh I like that observation! In the 1940s Lily worked on the sculptures of the Crow Island School in Winnetka, Illinois, the architects were who we know today as Perkins and Will along with Eliel, and Eero Saarinen. Lily was asked to decorate the walls for young children and teenagers. So the architects would say where they wanted the sculptures and the bricklayers would leave niches for the sculptures to be inserted. But she knew way beforehand, she was involved from schematic design, she would be given the blueprints and discuss with the architects where the sculptures would go and what they would be, what they would be made out of, the finishes, the look. This was not an afterthought. It was designed all together, it was a part of the architecture.
Lizi: Very cool. I like that she was integrated into the design process rather than just hired afterwards.
Jessica: It was the Saarinen way. Even Eilel and Loja designed that way. I love it! It makes it all flow together
Norgerie: She thought about how the children would engage with the sculptures, how low to the ground they would be, what they would be, she settled for different animals, pigs, cows, horses. Each classroom had doors that opened to the outside to little courtyards and each courtyard would have a sculpture. Lily made sure the scale of the sculptures were low so children could engage and touch them. And that they were brightly colored so the children would find them interesting.
Lizi: I really appreciate the thought she puts into the sculptures and who’s going to be interacting with them.
Jessica: yeah because let’s be real, a sculpture in a school is going to be climbed on and messed with - you might as well plan for it
Norgerie: She was totally thinking like an architect, do you agree?
Lizi: For sure.
Jessica: oh yeah
Norgerie: On a story that is all too familiar, Lily barely ever got any credit for her work. It would just not get recognized as an important part of the space, it will just fall under the umbrella of design by insert architect here. And that’s it. Lily didn't realize it at the time but as she grew older and thought about it, it really hurt her.
Lizi: That’s so sad. And even sadder that she realized in retrospect. I wonder if in the moment she had pushed for recognition if she could have made headway with it. But I’m sure that in the moment you're just excited to be working on a cool project and happy to have been part of it.
Jessica: Or that they think it’s just the norm at the time? Honestly, that is the bad side of the Saarinen clan - the men got most of the credit and I can understand that big firms that Lily partnered with - could also overshadow her. But that’s why telling her story now is so important.
Norgerie: 100% this is why we do it. Let me give you an example of what we're talking about. This project, Crow Island School, got a lot of buzz in the architecture community, she made 40 sculptures for this school and there was zero mention of that, her name was nowhere to be found, she was paid $500 and that’s it, end of story.
Lizi: Noooooo. Ugh. I am really sad for her that that was the ending of such a cool and well thought out and designed commission. And clearly it was well designed and well received if it got a lot of buzz.
Jessica: dang those sculptures were cheaapppppp - jokes aside that sounds terrible- equal pay is a real thing - it’s a shame that she wasn’t getting paid fairly.
Norgerie: Yeah. And no one ever really thought of giving her credit, all the architects were beyond pleased with her work and praised her in private, but unless you were in the know, you would have no idea who had anything to do with the sculptures. Shes says “I think it was just thoughtlessness. Because they were the same way about buildings. Eero particularly, you know, had all these people working for him, and as long as he paid for them, he didn't think it was necessary to point out who did what. And that kind of thing I don't want to dwell on because it's depressing. But it was natural. It was acceptable if you're paid for something, but I was only paid five-hundred dollars for the whole lot.”
Lizi: Yeah I think this is a common issue with architecture and design in general. It’s interesting to hear her talk about how Eero also was perpetuating this in his own firm. But I think like she said that it was thoughtlessness and just how things were done. Not that it makes it acceptable at all.
Jessica: yep it’s also the fog of the starchitect - we all know that it isn’t one person that makes the buildings, its a team of people. It also reminds me of an idea that AIA president-elect and friend of the show Evelyn Lee had - and IMDB for buildings - they have that for film and TV were people who worked on movies or in this case buildings can list their contributions. My cousin who works on shows says that she puts everything that she has ever worked on her IMDB page - even if she only brought coffee on set.
Norgerie: Really? I wonder how she notes that production assistant?
Jessica: yes
Norgerie: In 1954 Lily and Eero got divorced and she moved to Cambridge, Massachusetts.
Lizi: Sad about her and Eero, even though we knew that was coming since we already learned about his second wife Aline.
Jessica: yes, I was wondering about this because - things got a little saucy between Aline and Eero WHILE he was still married to Lily. Did she share her experience during that time? I always wondered if she had suspicions.
Norgerie: Not in the interview I read, so I decided not dwell on it or look into it further. We will keep her private life private today. Sorry the tea shop is closed today.
Jessica: fair
Norgerie: The divorce didn’t put a stop to her career. She carried on with her architectural sculptures, in the 1960s she did one architectural piece for Franklin Street in Boston for the Harbor National Bank. It was a relief constructed with the slab system technique which involved fitting pieces of her design in a kiln and transporting those to the site and then assembling them on site.
Lizi: I’m glad that she kept on keeping on. Way to go Lily!
Jessica: That's awesome - I knew Lily would rise above any of that nonsense with her ex-husband. Plus she was talented … we knew this.
Norgerie: We did. During her lifetime she taught at the Pratt Institute in New York City, MIT and the Museum of Fine Arts School in Boston. And she won various awards including the Rome Collaborative Competition, the A.H. Huntington First Prize, and I.B.M. Competition to name a few. She passed away on May 22, 1995 at the age of 83.
Lizi: Of course she decided to also teach haha. Well I am very impressed with Lily and how she threw herself into whatever she took on. I can’t wait to see pictures of some of her sculptures in the show notes as well.
Jessica: Yes, agreed- I can’t wait to see her work. Her story was so interesting- she did so many things - she was an olympian!
Norgerie: Alright, now we have reached the second part of our episode, the Caryatid. A caryatid is a stone carving of a woman, used as a column or a pillar to support the structure of a Greek or Greek-style building. In each episode we choose a “caryatid” -- a woman who is working today, furthering the profession through their work, and who ties into the historical woman of our episode.
Norgerie: Drum roll please…
Norgerie: Ada Tolla!
Lizi and Jessica: (applause) Yeay!
Norgerie: Ada Tolla, along with her partner Giuseppe Lignano is the owner of the firm Lot-Ek, which lives in the intersection between architecture and art. Through their practice they explore ideas of sustainability, reuse, materiality, in the built environment.
Lizi: ooo I can already sense a connection with Lily.
Jessica: yeahhh love to see it
Norgerie: Ada and Giuseppe met when they were 16 in their hometown of Naples, Italy. They have been in professional practice together since 1993. Their first commission was to renovate a friend's apartment, and they used the opportunity to explore materials, a high percent are things they found around the site, or just out and about. They call this upcycling.
Lizi: Cool.
Jessica: yeahhhh I love watching videos on how folks upcycle things. Any fans of the show “flea market flip”, holla at me! hahaha
Norgerie: They convert standard 40-foot shipping containers into offices, bedrooms, and studios where people live or that are part of exhibitions in museums all over the world.
Jessica: oooh - I love shipping container upcycling - they get a bad rep but I think they are coolNorgerie: Yeah I really like the look. Their motto is “We start with the things we find.” And they actually have a movie about their work with that same name.
Lizi: ohhh can we watch it?
Norgerie: They have special screenings of it, through their website you’re able to request an event. I was wondering how to connect them with the Houston Museum of Art, or actually the AIA Houston might be interested, I need to put that in my to do list. Talk to the AIA Houston President about screening the movie.
Lizi: Yeah that would be really cool.
Norgerie: If you wanna find out more about this movie, and how you can bring it to a screen near you, check our show notes. We will include a link to their website.
Jessica: yeahh have a screening near you
Norgerie: Ada and Giuseppe’s collaboration and experimentation reminded me of Lily how they all explore materials, scales, and user engagement of their designs. Just like Lily, Ada is also a professor, she currently teaches at the COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY, Graduate School of Architecture and she has also taught at Syracuse, though it was before our time, in 2005.Lizi: Whaat?! We could have had her as a professor in another life.
Jessica: Ahh dang - that would have been cool.
Norgerie: Before we say goodbye we want to say thank you to CMYK for the music, John W our technical advisor. And most of all thank you for listening!
Lizi: Remember to check out our show notes for links to all of our resources on this episode as well as pictures of projects we’ve talked about.
Norgerie: We hope you enjoyed learning about today’s lady and caryatid along with our banter, and that you are inspired to find out more about them and other amazing professional ladies. Again, thank you.
Jessica: Please let us know what you thought of our episode. If you’ve enjoyed it please help us spread the word. Tell your friends and give us 5 stars on Itunes and Spotify, and write us a review, this will all help us reach a wider audience and for more people to learn about these amazing ladies with us.
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Jessica: If you don’t need any more swag, but you’d still like to consider supporting the research we’re doing, you can donate to us on our website shebuildspodcast.com/donate or you can buy us a coffee at buymeacoffee.com/shebuildspodcast. You can also find links to all of these items on our website.
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Norgerie: We are excited to hear from you and for you to come back and keep learning about bosses with us. You can email us your thoughts at shebuildspodcast@gmail.com, leave a comment on our website shebuildspodcast.com, or follow us on instagram and facebook @shebuildspodcast, and on X @shebuildspod. See ya!
References
Architect Magazine. “Video, Alla Tolla, LOT-EK.” Architect, 23 Sept. 2013, www.architectmagazine.com/videos/ada-tolla-lot-ek. Accessed 2 Sept. 2024.
Clark, Jennifer. Who Am I? Children’s Book by Lily Swann Saarinen. Artifact of the Month for January 2013 - Gateway Arch National Park (U.S. National Park Service). 1 Jan. 2013, home.nps.gov/jeff/blogs/who-am-i-childrens-book-by-lily-swann-saarinen-artifact-of-the-month-for-january-2013.htm. Accessed 2 Sept. 2024.
“Lilian Louisa Swann Saarinen.” Facebook, 12 Feb. 2013, www.facebook.com/LilianLouisaSwannSaarinen. Accessed 2 Sept. 2024.
Lilian Louisa Swann Saarinen (1912-1995) - Find A... 17 Apr. 1912, www.findagrave.com/memorial/199071646/lilian_louisa-saarinen.
OBJECTS — LOT-EK ARCHITECTURE and DESIGN. lot-ek.com/OBJECTS.
“Oral History Interview With Lilian Swann Saarinen, 1979-1981 | Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution.” Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution, www.aaa.si.edu/collections/interviews/oral-history-interview-lilian-swann-saarinen-12593.
“We Start With the Things We Find.” We Start With the Things We Find, westartwiththethingswefind.com.
Wikipedia contributors. “Lilian Swann Saarinen.” Wikipedia, 17 Dec. 2023, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilian_Swann_Saarinen.
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